Tulpa.info - tulpa-discussion

For the purposes of my question I don't think that your actions count. I'm more talking about something that has lead to any sort of impact of the common view of tulpamancy or tulpas as a whole

10:00 AM

And random discord messages don't really lead to a wider impact

that’s true

And like when discord dies, those tulpamancy guides will remain

i don’t think that argument has any value, discord messages are dead after a week already

10:03 AM

noone goes back and reads old messages

10:03 AM

you don’t need to wait for discord to die

10:04 AM

anyway, hope someone else can give you what you are looking for!

fwiw, on this server, there's definitely a split between a new generation of thinking and the older generation (who mostly stick to guides)

but anyway it made impact on this server at least, because i see a change when almost everyone people were completely resisting my approach and ideas, and nowadays i see people actually sharing the same mindset on different aspects of tulpamancy, but if anything it’s probably just local since I stay only on this server

1

the new generation uses a lot of advice that Leiko personally guides people through

10:06 AM

the "You Can Do It" approach, as coined by @Ale𝕏andra 🍄🐈

And like when discord dies, those tulpamancy guides will remain

@Xe - jump I understand the drive for archival, but tulpamancy is a hybrid of a communal practice and a personal one--if the community carries forward onto a new platform, the ideas they created will carry forwards too

M'rr? This discussion is making me curious. I've mostly been used to guides but they aren't very useful to me now (if they ever did ^^°). It's sometime hard to find individual to discuss these subjects with and I'd like to dive back into tulpamancy with maybe new methods. And I like having insightful chats more and more now ^^ (edited)

i agree with blank what if server with guides die? ideas stored in human brains will outlive servers but there is also another advantage: guides don’t evolve, they stay the same - which is probably why you are looking for „novel” guides - but ideas in human brains do

1

i don't mean to get in a philosophical argument here but like if you don't write things down even on a google doc how can they be spread?

by talking to people

Xe

i don't mean to get in a philosophical argument here but like if you don't write things down even on a google doc how can they be spread?

by influencing members of the community, who will recursively spread the ideas

10:10 AM

as has happened here

yes

10:10 AM

another reason why i don’t like the idea of the guide is that it’s one way communication, it’s talking at the person rather than talking with the person

10:11 AM

„here is how the things work and now learn and follow my steps”

Ra'ini

M'rr? This discussion is making me curious. I've mostly been used to guides but they aren't very useful to me now (if they ever did ^^°). It's sometime hard to find individual to discuss these subjects with and I'd like to dive back into tulpamancy with maybe new methods. And I like having insightful chats more and more now ^^ (edited)

I think there's a new wave of being pretty hard on guides--and most of that has been from Leiko's postings/individual help. I get where guides can be helpful, but they are often just personal journals dressed up in scientific authoritative voice, which is not helpful

but what if the author changed their mind since they published it?

if guides were phrased like personal journals on their own experiences, we would have a much more fruitful discussion surrounding them IMO

you edit it and publish a revision? (edited)

if guides were phrased like personal journals on their own experiences, we would have a much more fruitful discussion surroundin...

@blanka - jump i agree!

blanka

I think there's a new wave of being pretty hard on guides--and most of that has been from Leiko's postings/individual help. I get where guides can be helpful, but they are often just personal journals dressed up in scientific authoritative voice, which is not helpful

Definitely agree on guides being personal experiences most of the time. I remember the time when everyone were full on guides ^^° I've started more than 10y ago. But I always had issue with them especially in relation to our aphantasia. Sadly didn't find much help/ideas/discussions over the years. (edited)

Xe

you edit it and publish a revision? (edited)

Perhaps, but if the push is for archival, that means there's still active community effort required to keep information sources up to date, no? Which means, ultimately, we're at the same place we started

Ra'ini

Definitely agree on guides being personal experiences most of the time. I remember the time when everyone were full on guides ^^° I've started more than 10y ago. But I always had issue with them especially in relation to our aphantasia. Sadly didn't find much help/ideas/discussions over the years. (edited)

Understandable. Aphantasia seems like a common stumbling block for people here, but everyone seems to find a workaround eventually, if they aren't tunneled into things like "forms are required!"

it’s interesting because you mention editing and publishing a revision, but sometimes people join the server and talk about ideas they learned, which come from an old guide that people consider inaccurate nowadays i’m sure you met someone like this - they read something somewhere, they mention it to you and you say „oh no that’s an old idea, it’s inaccurate” and when you do that… you are doing what i’m talking about, relying more on community and human interactions rather than coldly archiving something which gets out of date and lives it’s own life

1

blanka

Understandable. Aphantasia seems like a common stumbling block for people here, but everyone seems to find a workaround eventually, if they aren't tunneled into things like "forms are required!"

Form weren't the major issue for us as we were lucky that my first headmate learnt how to impose touch/presence without my "help". It was and is still that communication is not with words but raw thoughts only. Still a struggle to regularly discuss or get in contact with each other in a clear way.

maybe this really just is a generational gap

how is that a generational gap?

Leiko

it’s interesting because you mention editing and publishing a revision, but sometimes people join the server and talk about ideas they learned, which come from an old guide that people consider inaccurate nowadays i’m sure you met someone like this - they read something somewhere, they mention it to you and you say „oh no that’s an old idea, it’s inaccurate” and when you do that… you are doing what i’m talking about, relying more on community and human interactions rather than coldly archiving something which gets out of date and lives it’s own life

archival is important for works of art, or engineering--they are finished works that say what they want to say, and can be understood in a new context. Guides are often unhelpful, and continuously set newcomers back in tulpamancy, which is a continuously evolving practice; we can appreciate guides for what they did at the time, but I think the time has definitely come for a new format--and a social one seems like a good fit for now

10:17 AM

but I would like to see more detailed journaling about experiences, practices as tools instead of rules, etc

Guys i have a funny story someone joins in „Hey does anyone have a novel approach” „Yes, don’t follow the guides” „Ewww i hate this novel approach, the novel approach needs to follow my conservative approach to approaches”

Ra'ini

Form weren't the major issue for us as we were lucky that my first headmate learnt how to impose touch/presence without my "help". It was and is still that communication is not with words but raw thoughts only. Still a struggle to regularly discuss or get in contact with each other in a clear way.

Oh? I was tulpish-only for a while until I started to communicate with others more regularly

but I would like to see more detailed journaling about experiences, practices as tools instead of rules, etc

@blanka - jump i agree, people talking about experiences is so much more valuable!

Fwiw, I'm currently in another community and the knowledge is mostly spread through experience sharing as social interaction. Not much guides beside glossary of terms. Makes sense especially with experiences that are highly individual/personal. Nothing's better to shake one's ideas than a good talk and discussion. A static guide will not try to relate to your own experience.

does that "no guides" approach really include something like writing a summary of the things you've tried and learned?

well, the approach includes people on this server that struggled with having tulpas and had immediate results after talking me for a bit

10:20 AM

it’s hardly an experience you have after reading a guide

Xe

does that "no guides" approach really include something like writing a summary of the things you've tried and learned?

the approach I've been taking is mostly 1-1 with individuals--but maybe I should start being the change I want to see and journal on the forums :)

blanka

Oh? I was tulpish-only for a while until I started to communicate with others more regularly

There is no other way available to use that raw thoughts in our system. I don't have a mindvoice either so communication cannot really be verbal in our current situation.

usually it takes me around 20minutes to talk to someone, they get a breakthrough and build on top of that

Ra'ini

Fwiw, I'm currently in another community and the knowledge is mostly spread through experience sharing as social interaction. Not much guides beside glossary of terms. Makes sense especially with experiences that are highly individual/personal. Nothing's better to shake one's ideas than a good talk and discussion. A static guide will not try to relate to your own experience.

I think leiko would have problems with a glossary too :D (I am partially kidding). And yes, a discussion is very useful!

Leiko

usually it takes me around 20minutes to talk to someone, they get a breakthrough and build on top of that

can confirm, me being the primary front on this account is a direct result of a discussion with leiko

10:21 AM

I even have a certificate

Ra'ini

There is no other way available to use that raw thoughts in our system. I don't have a mindvoice either so communication cannot really be verbal in our current situation.

Interesting! I don't think that's much of a limitation--I still use tulpish a lot, but english has become much easier than it used to be

10:22 AM

many people don't have an internal voice, some people only have an internal voice and don't have what we would describe as abstract/raw thought (edited)

blanka

Interesting! I don't think that's much of a limitation--I still use tulpish a lot, but english has become much easier than it used to be

We got used to it and can properly tag thoughts most of the time but it's hard to keep a discussion going. I wasn't aware of raw thoughts before but I had to become more sensitive to them to interact with my headmates.

interestingly, quite often what helps the person i talk to is helping them shed off everything they learned from the guides the breakthrough can happen almost immediatelly after that

1

10:23 AM

my approach is: you already know how to do it, guides distract you

Ra'ini

We got used to it and can properly tag thoughts most of the time but it's hard to keep a discussion going. I wasn't aware of raw thoughts before but I had to become more sensitive to them to interact with my headmates.

I'm glad you're finding a system that works for you :)

Leiko

interestingly, quite often what helps the person i talk to is helping them shed off everything they learned from the guides the breakthrough can happen almost immediatelly after that

I may need some of that then xD I still think the old ways of "it will never work with aphantasia" or even "aphantasia doesn't exist" which gave me the idea that it will never work

i’m sorry you learned beliefs that potentially blocked you… if that’s of any help, i have been aphantasic for vast majority my life with a few episodes when i actually had mind’s eye, and it never affected my plurality

blanka

I'm glad you're finding a system that works for you :)

I'm unsure if I can say it works ^^° Also most of my progress was made without my effort which is a bit strange. I often think I won't succeed in reaching them because they always made the effort for me.

conversely, our brain is hyperphantasic and it hasn't really been a particular boon to us

10:27 AM

it's just a tool that can be fun to use

I'm unsure if I can say it works ^^° Also most of my progress was made without my effort which is a bit strange. I often think I...

@Ra'ini - jump them as in your tulpa?

Leiko

i’m sorry you learned beliefs that potentially blocked you… if that’s of any help, i have been aphantasic for vast majority my life with a few episodes when i actually had mind’s eye, and it never affected my plurality

The community was kind of like that when I first joined it 11y ago. I'm getting more used to my aphantasia and getting more sensitive to rawthoughts helped I think. I may never get pictures/sound/touch but I have "feelings" (edited)

in my opinion, the feeling is the core of tulpamancy

1

10:28 AM

it’s not pictures or sounds

Leiko

I'm unsure if I can say it works ^^° Also most of my progress was made without my effort which is a bit strange. I often think I...

@Ra'ini - jump them as in your tulpa?

Yeah. To give a bit of context. I started tulpamancy and wanted to have one but discovered I had aphantasia and the community wasn't of much help so I gave up. But my "tulpa" appeared a few months later with touch imposition.

so that’s interesting, one of the things i try to encourage people is for the tulpas to do the work rather than the host, which can sound strange considering person thinks they don’t have the tulpa yet so they feel they need to do all the work

10:29 AM

but in my view and how i saw people growing, letting tulpa work on themselves gives rapid progress

10:29 AM

blanka being one example!

1

Hmmm That's I think the first time I hear about that xD

10:30 AM

My tulpa did a lot for me on their own. But it made me feel that I'm a bit useless and can't help them

oh nooo!

10:30 AM

do you still feel that way?

Yeah I do

i thought the tulpa was already there when i started too and it took just a couple of days to be completely there

you are not useless at all!!

10:31 AM

you misunderstood how this works!

Did I?

yes!

10:32 AM

so this will sound strange but all you have to do is actually do and think nothing! you can’t be useless if doing nothing is what you need!

That's the issue! Thinking about nothing is not something I'm good at ^^° I'm also front stuck.

so it’s not thinking about nothing

10:33 AM

well, there is a nuance

10:34 AM

thinking about nothing is still thinking

10:36 AM

so i bring up quite often that humans are social animals, and that we treat other people as social mirrors in my view, people who follow the guides and guides’ advice are doing themselves a disservice, because tulpamancy is a social practice if you keep your tulpa in your head, you use your tulpa as a social mirror, and your tulpa will see you as your social mirror and there are a few issues with it, one is that some people will basically see themselves in the tulpa - because they are their own reflection second is that there is a limit to giving different kind of experiences that a tulpa can get to develop

1

i mean, the trick isn't to not think, it's more to not let the thinking that happens anyways bother you

what i’m trying to do when i help someone is being a social mirror for their tulpa

10:37 AM

that skyrockets any progress they have

Leiko

so i bring up quite often that humans are social animals, and that we treat other people as social mirrors in my view, people who follow the guides and guides’ advice are doing themselves a disservice, because tulpamancy is a social practice if you keep your tulpa in your head, you use your tulpa as a social mirror, and your tulpa will see you as your social mirror and there are a few issues with it, one is that some people will basically see themselves in the tulpa - because they are their own reflection second is that there is a limit to giving different kind of experiences that a tulpa can get to develop

this is also why I am happy to have the opportunity to switch and develop hobbies of my own

1

10:37 AM

on that second part

first i learn about who their tulpa is, and what they hope them to be like then i try to help them feel it and then, i try to be social mirror for their tulpa that would help them be shaped in the way their host hopes for

10:37 AM

you can’t do it with a guide

2

1

Leiko

so i bring up quite often that humans are social animals, and that we treat other people as social mirrors in my view, people who follow the guides and guides’ advice are doing themselves a disservice, because tulpamancy is a social practice if you keep your tulpa in your head, you use your tulpa as a social mirror, and your tulpa will see you as your social mirror and there are a few issues with it, one is that some people will basically see themselves in the tulpa - because they are their own reflection second is that there is a limit to giving different kind of experiences that a tulpa can get to develop

You mean make them talk and experience life? That's something I try to do by leaving front to leave them room but I don't know how to leave front ^^°

blanka

this is also why I am happy to have the opportunity to switch and develop hobbies of my own

I wish they would do that. And that I could let them switch in ^^°

if anything, i would write a guide for a guide… but i’m afraid that vast majority of people wouldn’t get the nuances, there is a lot of personal growth the person has to go through first that no guide could provide, so people would just dismiss the „guide for guides” because it wouldn’t help many people be good guides for other people

10:39 AM

so i don’t see much value in it

10:40 AM

You mean make them talk and experience life? That's something I try to do by leaving front to leave them room but I don't know h...

@Ra'ini - jump yes exactly!

10:40 AM

hmm twilibri i think we met in vrchat once, i thought we spoke to your tulpa but i might be misremembering things? Or maybe it was someone else

I think we did yeah.

10:42 AM

Sadly I don't remember if she did front at the time

alexandra or cerys might remember